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Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1909	Posted - 2013.06.14 04:30:00 - [1] - Quote Reduce PG and CPU, and then give it per-level bonuses to reduction of PG and CPU required to fit Nanite Injectors, Nanohives, and Repair Tools. Basically, set them up so they can have an ok tank and carry a Light Weapon, but such that trying to fit them like Assault suits doesn't work. Then we can work on trying to make Assault suits better at their role.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1920	Posted - 2013.06.14 05:34:00 - [2] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Or you can just make the Caldari logi's racial bonus not stack with the shield extender bonus and leave the other suits alone. Minmatar and Gallente are spot on, but the Amarr needs a CPU/PG buff. Caldari is the OP one because the extender efficiency bonus stacks with their racial, giving them +%35 shield on every extender they equip. Well the Caldari Logi suit is a no-brainer. That thing is unbalanced as hell.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1943	Posted - 2013.06.15 05:48:00 - [3] - Quote More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1948	Posted - 2013.06.16 04:07:00 - [4] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. In reference to the bolded section, you are officially among the most ignorant people on these forums. I am convinced more than ever that you do not legitimately play this game whatsoever. Really? If you think I'm saying that the Tac AR nerf was not needed, you misunderstood me. The problem with the Tac AR that is shared with the current Logistics suits is that they perform too many roles, not that they perform too well persay. I could still reliably kill a Tac AR user in CQC with a Breach Rifle if my aim was good and I timed my attack properly. The TAR is a long-range, high damage weapon, and it filled that role perfectly. The only issue with it was that it filled other roles quite well in addition, making the weapons designed for those roles obsolete. I would define an OP assets as something like the old Large Missile launchers. While all missiles were far too effective at killing infantry, the one thing that made them truly OP was their ability to one-shot any armor tank, no matter how well the operator fit it. They were an asset that performed the role that was intended, but did damage far outside of what they should have. That is what I would define as OP. The Tac AR, and the Logi suits right now, are merely an asset that performs too many roles. Rather than a blanket nerf or a major stat adjustment, what the current Logi suits need is a series of small changes, like those made to the Tac AR, that will push them into their intended role and allow the other Medium Frames to shine. That is the point I am trying to make.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1949	Posted - 2013.06.16 06:26:00 - [5] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross I agree. Like I said, the issue with the weapon was that it did too many things. Similarly, the Caldari Logi bonus allows it to do too many things, but specifically be a better Assault suit than any of the ones that were designed to fill that role.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1950	Posted - 2013.06.16 15:11:00 - [6] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross I agree. Like I said, the issue with the weapon was that it did too many things. Similarly, the Caldari Logi bonus allows it to do too many things, but specifically be a better Assault suit than any of the ones that were designed to fill that role. Cool, glad we're on the same page. Fix the Caldari Logi racial skills, give the racial skills of the Assault line some love an the problem is solved no need to tinker with the base suit stats (internal issues of the Amarr Med frames notwithstanding). It's good to have that cleared up. Cheers, Cross Sounds good to me. +1
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1955	Posted - 2013.06.17 03:51:00 - [7] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Caldari logistics < Flux grenade I wish CCP would give us an ETA on the projectile and targeting bug fixes currently afflicting the MD and Grenades. It is very difficult to do a proper set of tests on balance when relevant aspects are not able to work as intended due to multiple bugs. CCP has stated they don't want to alter base stats until they've fixed the bugs (specific response in the MD 911 thread) which while frustrating is understandable. They should by the same token not touch the Cal Suit stats until after the bug fixes are in and Flux Grenades are working as intended, considering the nature of the Cal Logi buff. I don't run the Cal Logi but based on fights against it and reading the stats internal to the Logi Line it seems OP compared to the other Logi suits and durable on the battlefield. To be fair however I don't actually struggle that much with killing the Cal Logi suit (I do run Flux on and off even tho they're buggy right now). With bugs fixed I expect the MD to need a bit of a buff, the contact nades to need a nerf, armor tanking to need some love and the Cal Logi suit buff to require a mild reduction. But as stated previously it's hard to get solid testing done on these interlaced issues due to the present bugs. 0.02 ISK Cross As far as we've seen in the last trailer, it looks like the fixes Wolfman was talking about for MD splash are in effect. As far as we know, there wasn't anything shown that wasn't slated for Uprising 1.2.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1968	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:43:00 - [8] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: I believe the flux grenades are working as designed. Damage dealt by flux grenades works like this: Any player equipment in the AOE of a flux is destroyed, any player not behind cover from the origin of the flux blast loses their shields, any player behind cover when flux blast occurs is protected from it's effects. As for the logistics suit, a good fitting costs more than the assault or heavy suits and gets killed quicker if focus fired upon, that is the balancing factor. The assaults have higher base stats on all racial variants and so, if used in an assault role, the logi suit does not reign supreme, but rather is ok for the support role because they support the assaults and heavies. The only reason for the higher PG and CPU is to be able to fit the equipment. The Logi suits have less tank slots on all racial variants than their assault suits so in all reality I find the balance the logi cry laughable, even when limited to the Caldari logi, which I have just recently respeced out of. It wasn't the premier suit and it certainly didn't provide me with a gigantic amount of hp, but it did give me a healty fear of flux nades and a respect for those of you who think that a 90Hp armor buffer for your flux naded suit will keep you alive long enough for your shield to regenerate so that I need more that 2 rounds from my ninja nerfed TAC Duvolle to kill you. We all make choices in this game, learning to live with them is the game. Meta everything and you will not have problems but go to the market to check first what the stats are and what the skill bonuses do for the equipment and suit being compared. Often skilling into something will provide an unforseen boost to a players stats when they achieve the skill level required to use a piece of equipment. In the case of the Caldari Logi suit, 5% bonus to shields per level is perfectly acceptable, they still drop to 0% shields when hit with a flux nade. You shouldn't really be able to protect yourself from an EMP behind any random object.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1969	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:08:00 - [9] - Quote hackerzilla wrote: LEAVE THE CALDARI LOGI ALONE NOW!!! Your name is hackerzilla. Your post is invalid.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1970	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:21:00 - [10] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: hackerzilla wrote: LEAVE THE CALDARI LOGI ALONE NOW!!! Your name is hackerzilla. Your post is invalid. His post got a like and this one won't from me I liked his post too, but that doesn't mean his name isn't silly.

Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1971	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:33:00 - [11] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: More what I'm saying is that the Logi suit is about as OP as the Tac AR was. The Tac AR, contrary to what some people here have said, was NEVER overpowered. It did exactly what it was supposed to, but it was also good at a few too many other things as well. Logistics suits aren't overpowered, but rather good at many different roles. Basically, our current Logistics suits are "Jack-of-all-Trades" suits. You can fit them in a variety of ways and have them fill that role you made for them perfectly. While the other suits push more specialization, these suits are the Tech-III ships of Dust, allowing you to basically make them do whatever you wish. They don't make you magically better than everyone else, but they let you be far more flexible in the number of uses you can get from a single suit. Numbers and screenshots or it didn't happen Seriously tho the old TAR was completely broken and any assessment to the contrary is simply an outright lack of testing/dismissal of evidence. Prior to the nerf the TAR was able to kill LAVs at range, was able to do more damage than a Laser at optimal, was able to kill shotgunners in CQC after the shotty fired off it's first blast... and the list goes on that way. The simple and obvious saturation of the weapon speaks volumes on it's own, when a single weapon is more common on the field than many weapon types it's a good bet that weapon is pushing beyond proper balance. The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. The Logi line =/= the Cal Logi. The Cal Logi suit =/= the Cal Logi suit + it's racial skill The OP'ness of the Cal Logi suit + racial skill =/= the OP'ness of the pre nerf TAR which did not cost more ISK or SP than other weapons of the same Meta nor did it require specialization within fittings to excel or have a list of inferior stats within its block. Being able to do too many things too well at once/at the same cost is most certainly a balance issue and that's what the TAR did. That is a threshold that even the Cal Logi suit (with it's currently OP racial buff) cannot attain in equal measure, even less so is it something the entire dropsuit line is capable of. 0.02 ISK Cross Here's the challenge if you missed it the first 2 times... I'm not saying it wasn't a balance issue. I'm saying that OP gets tossed around on here so much that we don't even talk about the underlying issues.

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